Ultimecia=Rinoa???

Επισκόπηση προηγούμενης Θ.Ενότητας Επισκόπηση επόμενης Θ.Ενότητας Πήγαινε κάτω

Ultimecia=Rinoa???

Δημοσίευση από Zack Fair Την / Το Τετ Ιουν 30, 2010 6:31 pm

Ακούσα μια θεωρία περί αυτού και πραγματικά δεν καταλαβαίνω γιατί γίνεται αυτός ο παραλληλισμός

___________________________________________________
avatar
Zack Fair
Admin
Admin

Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 1321
Reputation : 0
Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 09/06/2010
Ηλικία : 33
Τόπος : Mύκονοοοοοςςςςς!!!!!!!!!!!!

Επισκόπηση του προφίλ των χρηστών http://powerrangers.forumgreek.com/forum.htm

Επιστροφή στην κορυφή Πήγαινε κάτω

Απ: Ultimecia=Rinoa???

Δημοσίευση από Ground_zero Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 01, 2010 1:57 am

loipon....

- Giati h Rinoa EINAI h Ultimecia:

The Theory:
Due to the long lifespan caused by sorceress powers, Rinoa outlives all
the other characters. In order to ease the pain of loseing Squall; Rinoa
changes his ring, Greiver, into a GF and junctioned it to herself (or
she may have just based the GF off of the ring, something along those
lines). To her, Squall was the greatest person to ever live. As a
result, Greiver was the strongest GF ("The most powerfull GF.... You
shall....Suffer!"). But like the other GF, junctioning Greiver caused
the diterioration of memory. Eventualy, all Rinoa knew was that she was a
sorceress. She had even forgotten her own name, wich is why she took a
new one -Ultimecia. Ultimecia knew only one thing about her past, and
that was the fact that she had been happy back then. She wanted to be
happy again, she didn't want to feel sorrow any more. That's why she
sought out time compression. So that past, present, and future would all
become one and the happyness of her past could be felt in her present
and on into her future.
--------------------------
Points that support the theory:
-Rinoa and Ultimecia have a very similar apperance.
-Ultimecia has Rinoa's angel wings. Although anyone can obtain magic
wings my useing float. Rinoa is the only one capable of obtaining true
wings such as the ones Ultimecia has.
-Ultimecia has Greiver, wich she couldn't have without a connection to
Squall.
-Ultimecia's castel was located at the very same place where Squall and
Rinoa promised each other that they would be.
-Ultimecia's guardians have a few of your GFs wich you can draw if you
missed then earlyer in the game. As the last surviving team member,
Rinoa had all the team's GFs.
-One of the team's GFs is also a guardian in Ultimecia's castel
(Bahamut/Tiamat).
-Ultimecia's strongest guardian is Omega Weapon, an advanced form of
Ultima Weapon. Squall and company were the only people to ever see
Ultima Weapon and live.

(There's probably more, but that's all I can remember at this moment)
---------------------------
Just to save some time later, I'll go ahead and disprove a few points
against the theory.
-Odine said Ultimecia hasn't been born yet.
Counter Point: He dosn't know that for sure. He may know more than
anyone else about sorceresses, but even Odine dosn't know everything
about them. Remember, Adel strictly limited his research.

-Ultimecia has a speach problem caused by haveing a shortened tounge
that Rinoa dosn't have.
Counter Point: As long as Rinoa's been alive, there's a very good chance
that she may have been injured in such a way that she would talk like
that the rest of her life.

-Where's Angelo?
Counter Point: Most dogs don't live past teenage years. Angelo was
probably the first of Rinoa's friends to die on her. That pup is long
gone.


- Kai twra giati h Rinoa DEN einai h ultimecia:

After finishing Final Fantasy VIII, I discovered a widely spread
"theory" which suggested that Rinoa was in fact Ultimecia. I found this
argument articulated on the following site:
"http://www.kaldea.org/apocalypse/profile.htm," and have made a point by

point rebuttal to the evidences provided as support for this theory. It
is something that I hope other avid fans of Final Fantasy will find
interesting. Below are quotes from the webpage and my responses:

"fact 1: i believe that sorceresses do not age. why? because it never

in the whole game speaks of any sorceresses dying. it speaks of adel
being from the far past, yet she is still alive. also, present day cid
looks a lot older than present day edea. it is possible cid was as young

as edea looks when edea received her powers, making cid age but not
edea. if it is true sorceresses do not age, rinoa, being a sorceress
could
live on and become ultimecia."

Fact 1 Counterpoint: Granted, sorceresses in FF8 seem to either age
very slowly or not at all. It is conceivable that Rinoa could live long
enough to become Ultimecia, though Ultimecia is destroyed as the game
notes during her own time. Time compression forces past, present, and
future to exist simultaneously. It is conceivable that, in the endgame
sequence, Squall the elder could stand next to Squall the younger when
Squall the elder is from another space-time, but if all of space-time
has
been "compressed" into a kind of supreme "now," then it is not
consistent that Rinoa and Ultimecia could stand next to each other,
actively
pursuing the death of "herself;" that is, each trying to kill the other.

"fact 2: it is stated in the game that in order for a person to
become
a sorceress, a dying sorceress must pass her powers onto them, in order
to die in peace. however rinoa does not become a sorceress in this way.
she becomes a sorceress after you have fought edea in galbadia garden.
true you have to beat edea, but she's not dying, nor does she die, it
is never explained how rinoa became a sorceress."

Fact 2 Counterpoint: A quick review of the FF8 script shows the
explanation for Rinoa's inherited power. Zell says, "Matron's not a
sorceress
anymore." "Matron gave away her power to someone without realizing it."
Squall thinks, (To Rinoa......). Earlier Edea states that she inherited
her sorceress power at the age of 5. The ending sequence shows her
inheriting power from Ultimecia when she is obviously grown and running
the
orphanage. If she bequeathed her original power to Rinoa, there is no
conflict here. I could not locate the statement in the game that a
sorceress was required to die to pass on their powers, only the
suggestion
that such was the usual progression of events.

"fact 3: now i know what you're thinking, why would ultimecia want to

kill squall if she's rinoa? well there are many indications why. i
believe what happened to rinoa was, she aged and squall didn't, and
eventually he died and she lived on. unable to take the pain she became
evil.
it might sound a bit wayward but read this quote from ultimecia just
before she dies: "reflect on your..." "childhood..." "your sensation..."

"your words..." "your emotions..." "time..." "it will not wait..." "no
matter..." "...how hard you hold on" "it escapes you..."time will not
wait, no matter how hard you hold on it escapes you? this backs up my
theory of squall dying. she wanted to hold onto him but he died."

Fact 3 Counterpoint: The self-proclaimed theme of FF8 is love.
Obviously the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory provides antithetical
interpretation for
the story's ultimate "take," if you will, on love. The traditional
interpretation of the story's ending-that is, the obvious way to
interpret
the gist of the story's ending, though there are any number of details
that are left open to be pondered by the player-suggests a positive view

of love as a thing that gives light in a world where, as Ultimecia
suggests, everything comes to an end. This is a classically romantic
ideal-the mutability of our world. Everything, no matter how wonderful
it
might be for a time, eventually comes to an end. Numerous poets from
centuries past spent their lives pondering this tragic element of our
reality. That Ultimecia as a character would be consumed by the sadness
of
this element of her reality, that she would, in her insanity, desire to
absorb existence into herself, to bring things to an ultimate end as a
way to stop the pain of never-ending change, is not a meaningless role
for her to fill as an element of the story. Her speech during the final
battle scene reflects such ideals and gives the player insight into her
motivations, as we have precious little in the way of direct address
from Ultimecia in the game.

The R=U theory would present a completely opposite theme, one in
which
love is an ultimately futile entity in which the already unbearable
pain of change is brought to a climax in the degenerative insanity of
the
Rinoa to Ultimecia transition. While admittedly an intriguing idea,
this is not consistent with the way in which the game deals with its
theme
in other ways. The final CGI especially demonstrates the value being
placed on human relationships-it recounts just about every one we
encounter, from the Seifer/Raijin/Fujin friendship, to Cid and Edea, to
Selphie and Irvine. All of these end on a decidedly positive note. This
last
bit of story is presented in such a way as to build the player's
suspense-yes, yes, we see all of these people happy after the final
battle,
but what about Squall? Is he alive?-that is finally answered at the end.

Love, the game's theme, is vindicated. It brought Squall back to Rinoa
through the miasma of chaos in which he found himself after the final
battle.

"fact 4: on disc 3, squall says to rinoa at the field next to the
orphanage "i'll be here waiting for you i promise ... etc..." and
suddenly
the whole intro makes sense. now is it just a coincidence that
ultimecia's castle is placed exactly next to this? you have to ask
yourself, why
the hell would ultimecia park her castle there when she has anywhere in
the whole world to put it? she is waiting for squall at the field..."

Fact 4 Counterpoint: The placement of Ultimecia's castle might be
just
as easily attributed to any number of different things. That it is
attached to the former orphanage doesn't necessarily indicate anything,
and
the castle is over the water, not over the field. If the castle was
placed near the field intentionally to suggest an alternate meaning such

as this, one might easily ask why the castle was not floating over the
field itself. The symbolism would certainly be much more clear if this
were the case. Instead, we only have the silent testimony of the dead
SeeDs to inform us of why Ultimecia wound up there instead of somewhere
else.

"fact 5: now you might think, why would ultimecia kill squall when
you
fight her at the end, surely this is what she'd have wanted, to be
reunited with squall. this is a valid point, however she does not
recognised squall is squall, this is proven when edea explains who she
is,
squall approaches ultimecia and she says "who are you!?" (or something
along
those lines)."

Fact 5 Counterpoint: This is a bizarre use of logic. Ultimecia's
inability to recognize Squall in no way supports the Rinoa=Ultimecia
argument-in fact, it is evidence against that argument. If Ultimecia
remembered
something like which field Squall promised to meet her in, one would
think she'd have at least some small inkling of what her lost lover
looks
like. It is not that she "does not recognize [that] squall is squall,"
it's that she's never seen or known the kid before.

"fact 6: now this is a big indication that its true: rinoa 'borrows'
squall's griever ring, yes she does get zell to make a copy, but she
never gives squall his back, this is proven at the field when rinoa says
"i
have this dream, i get all dressed up and put on your ring...
etc...".just before you enter galbadia garden, you get to name the ring,
(the
default is griever). ultimecia has a gf.......called griever, (or
whatever you name the ring). if you remember, you get doomtrain out of
solomons ring. its possible griever is gained from squall's ring, which
ultimecia would have if she is rinoa."

Fact 6 Counterpoint: This is not supported by the available
information
in the game. The game states that Griever is, "in Squall's mind, the
strongest GF." Squall knew about this GF beforehand, and if he believes
it to be the strongest GF, then he clearly named his ring after this,
the strongest of all Guardian Forces. This connection is strengthened by

the fact that you can change the name of the ring/GF. There is
undoubtedly a strong connection there, but the information available in
the
game suggests a different cause-effect relationship-Squall named his
ring
after the GF. There is no actual evidence within the game to suggest
that the ring itself contains the GF, unless you assume that Ultimecia
is
Rinoa, in which case it does make sense. Granted, this relationship can
be viewed in such a way to make it consistent with the Rinoa=Ultimecia
theory, but it does not work as fundamental support, as it is just as
consistent (arguably more so) in the traditional interpretation of the
game's plot.

"fact 7: ultimecia has black wings, rinoa has white wings. there is a

lot of emphasis placed on rinoa's wings (on her costume, and limit).
black = evil, white = good. it would be a natural progression. that is
backed up by these shots taken from the ending. it appears rinoa's wings

are changing from white to black. (see the bottom of this page for
pictures)"

Fact 7 Counterpoint: This is another detail that, which it can be
interpreted in such a way as to make it consistent with the R=U theory,
does
not serve as support for that theory, as the wings issue can be viewed
in a way that is, again, as (arguably more) consistent with the
traditional interpretation as it is with the R=U theory. Rinoa is
clearly the
good character in the game-she has given unto Squall a kind of feeling,
a life, that he had lost. She represents everything good in the main
character's reality, the anchor to which his very existence is grounded
during his spiral into the chaos that reality became in the last scene.
She has white wings for a purely traditional reason-she represents
good. Ultimecia, chaotic, insane, evil, power-hungry, uncaring for
anyone
but herself, to the point of wanting to absorb existence into herself so

only she remains, has black wings because she is evil. She is the
antithesis of Rinoa. Rinoa represents bonding, human love, a living
representation of that which is good about our most basic relationships.

Ultimecia has rejected all life, she is close to no one, she wants to
sever
and destroy everything besides herself. She is, in essence, the
Antirinoa. The white/black wings can easily be interpreted as being part
of the
traditional good/evil dichotomy.

"fact 8: there are 3 fmv shots of ultimecia in the game, all are at
the
ending, and last less than 1/10th of a second each, barely visible (did
you notice them?). why would square go to all the trouble of making the
fmv if no one were to see it? square aren't stupid, they wouldn't waste
time and money for nothing."

Fact 8 Counterpoint: I'm sorry, but it is absurd that this is
included
as evidence. Square went to painstaking detail to create a living,
breathing world. There are any number of locations in FF8 that contain
enormous amounts of detail that 99% of the players will never look at
twice. Rooms in which nothing happens besides passing from one place to
another, rooms through which the character might only pass once during
the
entire course of the game, also contain Square's characteristic
attention to detail. That Square would not bother to include rendering a
model
of Ultimecia for "only" a few split-second scenes during the endgame
sequence is not consistent with Square's artistic attitude as
demonstrated in all of their other work.

"fact 9, the biggest: now i knew myself i would never believe it
unless
i saw that rinoa looked like ultimecia, and from what i could remember
she didn't. however, look at these pictures i have superimposed onto
one another (they aren't exactly right because the pose ultimecia is
doing, rinoa doesn't do, so i found the nearest match (see the bottom of

this page for pictures)"

Fact 9 Counterpoint: While I was admittedly unable to access these
images in which Rinoa is superimposed over Ultimecia, or vice versa,
this
is again not conclusive in the least. I would be curious to see exactly
how similar Edea might look to Ultimecia, or to Rinoa, if the same
thing were done. There is similarity in the features of these women, but
to
suggest that this indicates that one particular pair of them is
actually the same woman does not follow without sufficient evidence
drawn from
elsewhere.

This is an intriguing argument, and it suggests some ingenious
thinking on the part of the individual who first conceived of it, but it
does
not stand up to scrutiny, especially when examined in the context of
FF8's story. It is a testament to the complexity of the story and to
Square's willingness to let certain things be merely implied instead of
explicitly, unequivocally stated that such an argument could even be
made
in the first place. There is simply not enough evidence presented by
the author to overcome the clear intent of the storyline itself, to
overcome the obvious and natural places that each piece of evidence
already
fills in the traditional interpretation of FF8's storyline.

Egw lew afta pou lew panta, sto story oute oi idioi den kseran ti kanane Razz
avatar
Ground_zero
Riskbreaker
Riskbreaker

Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 652
Reputation : 0
Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 29/06/2010
Ηλικία : 35
Τόπος : Right behind you!

Επισκόπηση του προφίλ των χρηστών http://www.gamers-odyssey.com

Επιστροφή στην κορυφή Πήγαινε κάτω

Απ: Ultimecia=Rinoa???

Δημοσίευση από Zack Fair Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 01, 2010 2:16 pm

Καλά είσαι, μέγα μπάχαλο και γι'αυτό λατρεύω το παιχνίδι αυτό. Εχεις να ασχολείσαι
Λοιπόν στέκει να είναι η Ρινοα η Ultimecia αλλά δεν ξέρω αν ισχύει αυτό. Θυμάσαι σε μια ταινία του Βαν Νταμ όπου κάποιοι που ταξίδευαν στο χρόνο όταν ενώνονταν με τον ίδιο τους τον εαυτό εξαφανίζονταν οριστικά? Επίσης ένα άλλο κουλό που δεν καταλαβαίνω είναι ότι στο video του ορφανοτροφείου δείχνει την Ultimecia να δίνει στην 5χρονη Ρινοα τις δυνάμεις της και αργότερα και η Εdea τις δίνει και αυτή στη Ρίνοα? Τι κουλό είναι αυτό? Εκτός και οι 3 τους, τις έκαναν πάσα κάθε τρεις και λίγο...
Η Εdea πότε και πως έγινε μάγισσα?
Βρε λες η Ultimecia να είναι η κακιά πεθερά του Squall?


Έχει επεξεργασθεί από τον/την Zack Fair στις Παρ Ιουλ 02, 2010 5:58 pm, 1 φορά

___________________________________________________
avatar
Zack Fair
Admin
Admin

Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 1321
Reputation : 0
Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 09/06/2010
Ηλικία : 33
Τόπος : Mύκονοοοοοςςςςς!!!!!!!!!!!!

Επισκόπηση του προφίλ των χρηστών http://powerrangers.forumgreek.com/forum.htm

Επιστροφή στην κορυφή Πήγαινε κάτω

Απ: Ultimecia=Rinoa???

Δημοσίευση από Ground_zero Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 01, 2010 11:02 pm

This game's story is messed up.
avatar
Ground_zero
Riskbreaker
Riskbreaker

Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 652
Reputation : 0
Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 29/06/2010
Ηλικία : 35
Τόπος : Right behind you!

Επισκόπηση του προφίλ των χρηστών http://www.gamers-odyssey.com

Επιστροφή στην κορυφή Πήγαινε κάτω

Επισκόπηση προηγούμενης Θ.Ενότητας Επισκόπηση επόμενης Θ.Ενότητας Επιστροφή στην κορυφή


 
Δικαιώματα σας στην κατηγορία αυτή
Δεν μπορείτε να απαντήσετε στα Θέματα αυτής της Δ.Συζήτησης